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Post by Dubsounds on Aug 6, 2005 21:12:06 GMT
This just in from Russ... Shaun
Be gentle with me mate, Im NOT enirely happy with it, but it does not sound too bad.
I wont be doing any more Numan stuff for a while, Im too busy working and doing other stuff at the moment, I need to spend more time on my songs, which unfortunatly does not use any numan sounds whatsoever. CLICK HERE TO LISTEN In response... This sounds pretty good mate. My only reservation is... Why did you do it slow? It would have sounded perfect if you'd played it as fast as on LO79 etc. Mixing wise this is much much better than your DITP and you certainly got the overheads and hat sorted this time. I did say to you last time that creating facsimile Numan tunes was probably not a good direction in the long term (talking from experience ahem ) and to hear you talk of going back to your own stuff is very promising. It's so much easier to do something from scratch and you have the benefit of people enjoying your sounds without making comparisons to that which you've sought to re-create. Dubsounds isn't a Gary Numan site and I really want to hear YOUR music so please send it in Russ. You obviously are very technically proficient and I look forward to hearing the "real Russ" and as soon as possible. ;D
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Post by rpb1966 on Aug 6, 2005 22:32:13 GMT
Thanks for the kind words Shaun, I know I slowed it down abit, but the reason behind this, I`m starting to struggle playing the drums at a faster speed as I seem to be getting pains in my right hand whilst drumming, I must have done about 15 re-takes on the drums, maybe a slight case of Arthur settling in, or Vankers cramp thats the main reason why its at a slower pace. Overheads yes your 100% right, just a little reverb and and a tiny hi-boost on the EQ just to warm them up abit, again the same with the Hi-Hat, it gives that much more life in the mix........sweet!!!! I am working on some of my own stuff, but thats a little way off at the moment, I maybe able to send a demo version of a song called `The Book Of Days`in the next few weeks, its a very orchestral piece, which uses, some of the best strings sounds I`ve ever heard, a Bosenforder Piano, and Mellotron Choir besides others. Russ
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Post by Minimoog on Aug 6, 2005 23:36:33 GMT
God it's great to hear some proper drums played right occasionally isn't it? Sounding excellent Russ ;D Agree it's a tad slower than ideal (reason noted ) but in all other respects a really sound cover. That NL Vox H would work live very well I reckon. As Shaun said the pressure's on now for an original bit of choonery... ;D
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Post by vortex on Aug 7, 2005 0:23:14 GMT
Nice one mate. This occasion I took the time to write your mp3 to a cd and play it on me old Hifi. Pretty nice work. Even survived the pseudo surround processing when tried on my av amp. the subwoofer made the house resonate.
I agree lets hear your own stuff then our ears won't be tainted by any failure to emulate numans sounds.
What does the nord lead vh sound like in the lower octaves???
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Post by rpb1966 on Aug 7, 2005 0:29:13 GMT
What does the nord lead vh sound like in the lower octaves??? The same as the original Polymoog mate Russ
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Post by flipmartian on Aug 7, 2005 8:58:14 GMT
Nice cover. Dunno whether it might have stood a bit of digital speedery-uppery without affecting pitch but synth sounds are luvverly. The polymoog patch sounds virtually spot on to me (mind you, I'm not a poly expert by any stretch).
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Post by Synth Man on Aug 7, 2005 11:18:50 GMT
That was quite good.
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Post by Gavin on Aug 7, 2005 11:21:39 GMT
From what i remember,it sounds almost identical to the original. Why not try something different with it?
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Post by rpb1966 on Aug 7, 2005 11:25:31 GMT
Why not try something different with it? Why ruin a classic?.I did!!!!! Russ
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Post by spoonz on Aug 7, 2005 18:40:18 GMT
I liked this version Russ and agreed with most of what Shaun said.
As for the Vox Humana accuracy I have to piss on your fireworks a bit (sorry) It ain't as close as you think.
The original has way more depth(Except Jordans) and is less busy. Whilst you have a similar tone that's as close as it gets. Pretty good from a digital synth though.
You should send the song minus Vox Humana to Shaun or myself and we could put the real thing on top and you will hear the difference.
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Post by Dubsounds on Aug 7, 2005 20:19:51 GMT
Not that we're trying to convert you or anything Russ Now that's what I call pant squelching [/b]
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Post by Minimoog on Aug 7, 2005 20:57:15 GMT
The original has way more depth(Except Jordans) Oh ta rub it in why don't you
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Post by spoonz on Aug 7, 2005 22:29:07 GMT
Sorry mate
Couldn't resist.
On a positive front look at Poly survival kit in General chat.
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Post by rpb1966 on Aug 8, 2005 16:26:04 GMT
OK guys I understand what your saying, but lets face it the Polymoog is a beast which needs alot of TLC, weighs a ton and its a rare masterpiece to get hold of.
But trying to re-create the Vox Humana sound is somewhat hard on a VA synth, unless you have a PolyMoog your not going to get the `exact` replica, but it does sound somewhat convincing especially coming from a VA.
So if this has been mentioned before, I do apologize for bringing it up again but is anyone going to making a sound font `sf2` patch of the PolyMoog Vox Humana, and if so when!!!.
Again with the Drylands patch, too me it sounds quite good, but the characteristics are missing, if someone does manage to recreate the original Odyssey sound (which I dont think is going to be easy) will that end up as a sound font as well?.
Russ
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Post by spoonz on Aug 8, 2005 17:26:51 GMT
Russell
Your Vox Humana patch is indeed a best effort as far as VAs are concerned that I have heard.
Alesis A6 comes closest but it's partly analog and cost much much more.
As far as sampling the Vox Humana this subject has been flogged to death by Shaun pre Polymoog ownership and the conclusion is the Poly cannot be sampled. At least not convincingly.
Nor can any Va capture it properly. The way the Polymoog made sound was unique to that instrument and at least for now that is how it stays.
Shaun has a VSTI patch for the Polysix which is quite good in a mix as is your example.
And yes they are rare and can be quirky to maintain but they still represent quite good value compared to a Mini for example. you could still buy one and get it working for £600 ish if you shop around. For some people they just don't want the hassle and sacrifice originality for reliability/cost.
Look at Mr Numan for example.
By the way I really liked your drumming. Can't beat the real thing. Added something to the song for me.
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Post by Dubsounds on Aug 8, 2005 18:33:37 GMT
Col is correct Russ, the subject has been flogged to death but I can understand why the thought of an sf2 is so attractive. The problem is that the real Vox Humana sound is far from a twin oscilator wobbly saw. The sound is very organic and random in nature. In short, if you look at a single note on a DAW you will see that the waveform cycles around and contantly evolves so that it has no fixed state. Also by the nature of the extensive and unique modulation set-up, it is impossible to transpose a note convincingly (even by a few semitones) as it will either speed up or slow down the cycles of oscilation. Also, because the Polymoog is unique in that it has a modulation card for every note, no two notes sound the same anyway! So where does that leave us? Well it would be possible to sample so long as you took a sample of all 71 notes and held them for a considerable time... can you see where I'm going with this? So realistically, you'd be looking at a sondfont in excess of a gigabyte probably to achieve any realism (and that would only be in one fixed state of the sound). You would also have to make the start time of each note random so that each time you played it back it would trigger from a different part of the wavecycle (not the begining of the sample every time) and would require an attack envelope to match the Polymoogs. Now comes some other problems... 1. The decay! I haven't a clue how it works (maybe some more technically proficient synthesists could enlighten me) but the decay on the Vox Humana is very unusual. It sustains much longer at the bottom of the keyboard, getting shorter as you run up the keys (not simple keyboard tracking though). Also the sustain itself is very odd. I've tried to match it with an ADSR but there's something more tricky going on with the real envelope. It's more like an ADSDSR??? 2. Vox Human is extremely touch sensitive. To emulate Numan is easier because all his stuff is played really softly but in practise, if you hit a note hard, it has an exponentially faster attack, brightness volume and reduced decay. You can't sample that lot either because its a gradual transition dependent on velocity. 3. The pitch ribbon... a unique device which is more than a bend wheel in that you have much more dynamic control over the pitch and can bend a note much faster than with a wheel. The high E wailing swoops in "Telekon" being a brilliant example. But we're talking about sampling here... as I mentioned, you can't transpose a Vox Humana note so how can you pitch bend a sample of one? The answer is, you can't! So what's to do there? Another SF2 of pitchbends? Russ, I went through all this after 26 years of trying to emulate the Polymoog on various synths and also thought I might be able to use samples but to no avail. I finally took the plunge and bought a Polymoog Not a day goes by when I don't stroke that beautiful beast and get a warm fuzzy feeling. It's a love thang. It started in 1979 with the Replicas intro on the Touring Principle and has become one of my life's obsessions. It looks amazing, the keyboard is gorgeous to play. The weighting is spectacular, very responsive and fast, (God, I wish I could use it as a MDI controller, it's that good). It sounds fan fookin tastic and its all over the Cars and Complex videos yaaaay £600 may seem like a lot of money to splurge one one preset... but then again what a preset? Not a single synth in the world has ever sounded like it mate and probably never will. It has the hairs standing on the back of your neck factor that nothing else quite managed and the experience of looking at one in front of you and then playing the Replicas intro on it is better than sex! ;D
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Post by Minimoog on Aug 8, 2005 20:17:34 GMT
Oh FFS Shaun. Stop prevaricating.
Do you like it or not?
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Post by Dubsounds on Aug 8, 2005 22:13:16 GMT
Oh FFS Shaun. Stop prevaricating. Do you like it or not? Jordan, as eulogies to the holiest of holies "Vox Humana" go, that's about my best shot mate More tea vicar?
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Post by flipmartian on Aug 8, 2005 22:16:45 GMT
Oh FFS Shaun. Stop prevaricating. Do you like it or not? Heh heh! Good one!
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Post by rpb1966 on Aug 9, 2005 15:01:24 GMT
Oh well looks like I`ll have to stick with my Nord Lead then!!!
Russ
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